Spacer dyno...

[Bloodninja]

I know a lot of us won't believe until we see with our own eyes, nonetheless...

Dyno results for the 'flex' phenolic 3/8" single-port spacer are discussed here:

http://www.v6mustangmag.com/PhenolicTech.html

Claimed as 7.2 ft-lbs of torque and 6 hp at the wheels across the rpm range.

If this thread gets too stupid it may have to go to the lounge.

[Mus35th]

I know a lot of us won't believe until we see with our own eyes, nonetheless...

Dyno results for the 'flex' phenolic 3/8" single-port spacer are discussed here:

http://www.v6mustangmag.com/PhenolicTech.html

Claimed as 7.2 ft-lbs of torque and 6 hp at the wheels across the rpm range.

If this thread gets too stupid it may have to go to the lounge.

Where's the dyno sheets?

[stangin99]

its up..

http://www.extremeeffect.com/Picture_755595_654x438.jpg

[justin00v6]

there dyno was useless without temps on the upper and corresponding power output...hello infrared temp gun

[gitman]

i thought this dyno was controversial anyways

[Neo]

its funny how ppl here are so negative towards the spacers and ppl at 3.8 are so positive??? I dont get it.

[justin00v6]

its funny how ppl here are so negative towards the spacers and ppl at 3.8 are so positive??? I dont get it.

I get it. We want proof. We still haven't seen any empirical data.

I'm so sick of this. If someone has a 99+ v6 to test and pay for the dyno themselves I will put a spacer on it (I have one) and make sure the dyno is done methodically with temps of the air, head, upper, and oil pan recorded.

The whole point of these spacers are temps, if you don't take them into account then your testing is pointless. Want cooler upper intake temps? buy a bag of ice, you don't need a spacer to do it.

[stylin97]

its funny how ppl here are so negative towards the spacers and ppl at 3.8 are so positive??? I dont get it.

v6power tech > 3.8 tech

[Neo]

that could very well be true stylin. But i guess i dont understand how some ppl say they felt a very nice gain when adding the spacers. Was it in there head? :eek:

[95GT4ME]

The temps are a moot point.
The torque stayed the same regardless of intake temps, outside temps, or if the car was on fire.

The torque remained the same. The added HP was only a bonus and can remain a subject of debate due to temps.
However, the torque is was and stayed at 7.2 regardless of any temp.

Torque NEVER changed, and that is the true strength in these spacers. So do keep icing that intake, you'll only make that much better.

[SMoKEDya95stang]

Do you have the before and After dyno sheets?

[95GT4ME]

Do you have the before and After dyno sheets?

It is right up at the top.

There were well over 40 runs made with this spacer on various setups.
The only thing that changed was the HP results due to various operating temps. And even after the car got completly heated up as hot as it ever got, we still held on to 2 extra HP.

The spacer really does have balls. And we can't say enough possitive things about it due to the torque output that it gives. And just imagine what can happen when you also ice the intake.

I don't know if anyone of you have read the report on it yet, or maybe you just looked at the dyno sheet, but we ended up leaving it on our project V6 because of the performance it gave.

I'm sure if any of you have more questions, I can try to help answer them, but we have given Flex all the information we had gathered over the 2 week period with them, and he may have more time to help answer your questions.

But post any questions you have here or at 3.8mustang and if I can I will get James ( our R&D tech) to help you with them.

[crabmeat]

the sum of all your mods together is greater than each individual gain when added separatley. it's kind of like the inverse square law. as the modifications increase by a factor of two...the total HP/Tq increases by a factor of 2^X. if you put on a spacer and get 5hp. then take it off and put on a CAI and get 5hp....the total separatley is 10. however if you put them on at the same time you might get 12 or 15 hp. all i know is that i couldn't chirp going from 1st to 2nd until i put on the spacers....now i can. my final mods are going to be a Pro-M 75mm MAF from De Molet(in a week or so) a transgo shift kit(Wed or Thurs) and maybe dual exhaust. the chip is out for now because a friend of mine got his EEC fried and another one voided his EEC warrenty.....(even though he took it off before service they knew he had one on...go figure)

[tbennett]

just a Q, these were tested on a single-port, right? What is the purpose of shortening the runners on the upper when P&P? I thought it was to allow for higher peak hp, longer runners for tq, shorter for hp. How much were the runners shortened? Wouldn't lengthening the runners by a similar amount show tq gain? Regardless of temp? Just asking...

[95GT4ME]

Shortening the runners is practicaly useless. The intakes can be ported and still give gains without shortening the runners (moving the powerband up) which is pointless especially considering the costs involved.

But the spacer was tested on MANY different V6's with all various mods. No other mod affected the gains. It gained the same every time no matter how many or how few mods were on the car.

And we did mention in this very post that the TQ gains were there regardless of temp. The temp only affected the HP, which we weren't expecting to have a gain in anyway. But it keep it cooler. So it's like always having a "bag of Ice" on the intake.

[nikko]

if you put on a spacer and get 5hp. then take it off and put on a CAI and get 5hp....the total separatley is 10. however if you put them on at the same time you might get 12 or 15 hp.


umm, no. 'fraid not.

Those two mythical parts that make 5hp alone may only add up to 7-8 total if you put them together. The formula you just created simply isn't true.

[Stone]

that could very well be true stylin. But i guess i dont understand how some ppl say they felt a very nice gain when adding the spacers. Was it in there head? :eek:

You feel low end torque gains. This is why people complain that they lost power when you get duals yet the dyno says they lost only 3ft/lbs down low and gained 10hp up top and they are much faster at the track. I can believe you gaining 3ft/lbs down low and you can feel that, but people won't feel the HP loss up top from the spacers, they ASSUME that the gain down low translates all the way through the power band but runner length physics tells us that is not true.

This dyno is promoted by a (shady) vendor who sells spacers, they have a money interest in this. This is like believing Spiralmax when they post dynogains of 20hp. If you know alot about dynos, you know they can be manipulated to make a case for any product.

[mikael]

get them an editor, stat!

[mikael]

burn on v6p!

V6MM: What is your favorite messageboard?
Branko: For V6 only applications I would have to say that 3.8 Mustang is one of thr friendliest sites for members. For all round Mustang enthusiasts, All Ford Mustangs is probably the best source of info and good atmosphere on the net. Neither site is dominated by arrogant and self glorifying "legends".


this is my 10101 th post! weee.

[FrankSC97]

this is my 10101 th post! weee.

I only count 21. :)

[mikael]

this is my 10101 th post! weee.

I only count 21. :)

yaaay! somebody got it!
i wasn't sure if anybody would count or not.

[Dutch]

its funny how ppl here are so negative towards the spacers and ppl at 3.8 are so positive??? I dont get it.

I get it. We want proof. We still haven't seen any empirical data.

I'm so sick of this. If someone has a 99+ v6 to test and pay for the dyno themselves I will put a spacer on it (I have one) and make sure the dyno is done methodically with temps of the air, head, upper, and oil pan recorded.

The whole point of these spacers are temps, if you don't take them into account then your testing is pointless. Want cooler upper intake temps? buy a bag of ice, you don't need a spacer to do it.

You didn't read the link. They say that as the upper intake heated up, horsepower gain fell from 6 RWHP to 2 RWHP, but the 7 lb/ft torque gain remained consistent. If you really think spacers are all about temps, you should definately buy some because they make an incredible difference in how cool your upper intake is. I once drove 30 miles from downtown Phoenix to my house (80* weather, speeds from ~20 mph to ~80 mph). When I got home, I popped the hood and the upper intake - all of it - was cool to the touch.

Icing your intake is for homos, the goal should be power gains that work all the time.

If you think it's all about the temperature, you should definately invest in some spacers.

[Dutch]

if you put on a spacer and get 5hp. then take it off and put on a CAI and get 5hp....the total separatley is 10. however if you put them on at the same time you might get 12 or 15 hp.


umm, no. 'fraid not.

Those two mythical parts that make 5hp alone may only add up to 7-8 total if you put them together. The formula you just created simply isn't true.

It is possible, though, depending on what parts they are and what the engine's biggest restriction is.

[SpectorV]

until some private person that we trust runs a good dyno on them we wil never kwon the true story.

[SpectorV]

get white95v6 to run a dyno (matthew warrenth) he works with a place that has a dyno i am sure he wouldnt mind helping out.

[95GT4ME]

Gaston, why are you calling us shady? What have we done to you?
And no we do not have a money interest. Check out our site....they are no where to be found.

I became friends so to speak with Flex, and he told us about his spacers. I asked if we could dyno them to have a change of pace around the shop and do something different.

We tested them for 2 weeks. Those are the gains. If we had an interest in it, then why would we mention that the TB spacer showed no more than 1 HP? And therefor could say if it made a real gain or not.

I am truely sorry fellas but I thought we were all here to learn. It looks like some people just have thier own opinions, and no dyno to rely on and this is how they call themselves a "tech"?

And again, now we are getting called shady?
We sponsored your Morana V6 race, we have tried several times to get on this very board as a sponsor with no luck, and now we are getting called Shady?

Gaston, I am sure this is a great board and I do wish I had more time to post here, but as far as you are concerned, you do not know us have made no effort to make an attempt to know us even though we are busting ass to help your own messageboard community in any way possible.

I just don't understand, but I can't argue with someone who can't even acknowledge a dyno chart sitting right in front of them.
Take care, and in the very least since our company is so wrong, surley someone somewhere can come up with one of thier dynos where the spacers showed a loss............right?

At least show "proof" on your end rather than an opinion.

[JD]

holy newbies batman

:eek:

[justin00v6]

You didn't read the link. They say that as the upper intake heated up, horsepower gain fell from 6 RWHP to 2 RWHP, but the 7 lb/ft torque gain remained consistent. If you really think spacers are all about temps, you should definately buy some because they make an incredible difference in how cool your upper intake is. I once drove 30 miles from downtown Phoenix to my house (80* weather, speeds from ~20 mph to ~80 mph). When I got home, I popped the hood and the upper intake - all of it - was cool to the touch.

Icing your intake is for homos, the goal should be power gains that work all the time.

If you think it's all about the temperature, you should definately invest in some spacers.

Dutch, I read the link, but I would like to see real #s in degrees, not someones subjective version of hot, warm and cool.

A spacer isn't going to make the upper cool all the time. Upper intake temp=engine bay temp. That engine bay is going to be equal to engine temp sitting in traffic. Now when you are cruising down the interstate the upper is going to get cooler.

I do think its mostly about temperature. The long runners are 13-15" long, and the short around 9-12" long. A 3/8" spacer will only change length 2-4%. Now you can turn that into a percentage of engine torque and come up with a # that makes sense but we don't know if it works that way. If it did we could all have very long runners and have tons of torque (the 4.2s have much long runners...but they gain the torque from displacement) and the 94-98 guys who shorten their runners 1-2" would loose a bunch of torque, but they don't.

It's also important to take into account lubricant temps for the engine, tranny, and rear. After several pulls the rear and tranny are just begining to heat up.

[95GT4ME]

I am not the tech...James is. We discussed this because the gains were still there even on an intake we made where we did shorten the runners. So what does this mean? I have no clue, but I'm sure James could better explain it. He siad that it may be because of once the air hits the turn in the intake, it then speeds up as it goes down. Well that is where the additional length was added. Right there as the velocity picks up and that is where it makes the runner longer.

This would also explain why shortening the runners on the upper doesn't do much of anything, because that is NOT where the action in the intake is taking place.

Does this help?

[SpectorV]

I appologize for anyone calling you shady or un truthful. its just that we have seen countless businesses, manufactuers, ect putting up false numbers to sell the product. I know you said you DO not sell them and I dont mean to make that sound like you do or are in any way part of the spacers as far as selling and profiting from them.

I am sure some here think other wise. Just let some private people post dyno in formatino and I am sure they will soon and the truth will come out.

[Stone]

Gaston, why are you calling us shady?

Don't pretend StungbymyStang is not the same group and don't pretend
you didn't know that THOUSANDS of dollars of orders were held and not
sent for many MANY months. I know John and I know he lies. If you own
a Mustang stay as far away from StungbymyStang or whatever they
choose to call themselves nowadays.

PS-You will never advertise here, I won't help you continue your fraud.

[Justang2k]

You didn't read the link. They say that as the upper intake heated up, horsepower gain fell from 6 RWHP to 2 RWHP, but the 7 lb/ft torque gain remained consistent. If you really think spacers are all about temps, you should definately buy some because they make an incredible difference in how cool your upper intake is. I once drove 30 miles from downtown Phoenix to my house (80* weather, speeds from ~20 mph to ~80 mph). When I got home, I popped the hood and the upper intake - all of it - was cool to the touch.

Icing your intake is for homos, the goal should be power gains that work all the time.

If you think it's all about the temperature, you should definately invest in some spacers.

Dutch, I read the link, but I would like to see real #s in degrees, not someones subjective version of hot, warm and cool.

It's also important to take into account lubricant temps for the engine, tranny, and rear. After several pulls the rear and tranny are just begining to heat up.

did you take all that into consideration when you did the ASP UDP dyno's?

[Bloodninja]

burn on v6p!

V6MM: What is your favorite messageboard?
Branko: For V6 only applications I would have to say that 3.8 Mustang is one of thr friendliest sites for members. For all round Mustang enthusiasts, All Ford Mustangs is probably the best source of info and good atmosphere on the net. Neither site is dominated by arrogant and self glorifying "legends".



:laugh2:

Wow. Someone has some issues.


We sponsored your Morana V6 race,.

That wasn't Gaston's race.

[justin00v6]

did you take all that into consideration when you did the ASP UDP dyno's?

ASP did them, not me. They have a good rep in the industry and I'm sure they know how to dyno a car.

In a few words here's my issue with spacers. I don't think the runner lenth adds power. I think you will only get power from cooler temps, if that even helps. Yes a spacer will make your upper intake cooler when there is good airflow through the engine bay. However your engine is also cooler when you first turn it on in the morning after sitting for 8hrs, and many drag racers push the car through the staging lanes.

So is it worth spending money when your upper will get hot sitting in traffic and when you can do the same thing for free by letting the motor cool.

[Jester4kicks]

Ok, I've been following this thread for a while. Kind of amusing in sick sort of way... anyway, I've held my tongue because although the arguments here have been rather heated (no pun intended), none of them was particularly horrible.

Gaston, I'm sorry, but your attitude toward EE simply because they took over SBMS's problem is terrible. This is a company that stepped in and took over a very bad situation, and after just a little time, rectafied it. I've got two very good friends that had almost given up all hope on the money they thought they lost to SBMS... and yet within a few months of EE stepping in, they got their parts.

Even if this is some great conspiracy and the whole company is a lie... so what? They fixed a problem that most people had given up on.

BTW, there is not a shadow of a doubt on the power I gained from my spacer set. I won't bother going into it now, but I installed my spacers shortly before the dyno graphs showed up, and the graphs only confirmed what I already knew.

I'm sorry you're so jaded about EE that you can't see that.

[Justang2k]

I'm getting very confused about your logic.

Flex gave intake readings in this post:
http://www.v6power.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13985&highlight=raytech+infrared+thermometer&sid=09bf5c35df60cfbf41df245db3575707

then you guys said you need to do dyno's. so he did. now you still say it's bullshit. where does it end? what does it take? He's got a legit product, why do you want to hurt his business?

[Stone]

I'm getting very confused about your logic.

Flex gave intake readings in this post:
http://www.v6power.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13985&highlight=raytech+infrared+thermometer&sid=09bf5c35df60cfbf41df245db3575707

then you guys said you need to do dyno's. so he did. now you still say it's bullshit. where does it end? what does it take? He's got a legit product, why do you want to hurt his business?

For the 2975392895th time I personally don't care about him or his business. Spacers were useless long before he decided to make them,
and I've never said otherwise. Don't waste your money, please put it
into something useful.

[Justang2k]

actually what I really want to know is what is needed to prove that these spacers actually have performance gains?

[Jester4kicks]

actually what I really want to know is what is needed to prove that these spacers actually have performance gains?

No kidding!

Gaston, I want to believe that you're open to new information... but it seems like no matter what evidence is presented, you won't change your position....

So the question remains... what would convince you, or any other doubters here, that these dyno results are accurate and the spacers do, in fact, add torque?

[DangerDude]

Please everyone nobody question the Great Gaston. they do not speak of the truth for the Great Gaston will silence thee. All HAil the Great Gaston
Zieg Hiel! Zieg Hiel! Zieg Hiel! Zieg Hiel! Zieg Hiel! Zieg Hiel!

OH I feel the presence of the Great ones Master Lock!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Jester4kicks]

Danger Dude, Shut up... that isn't helping. Either contribute to the objective conversation or just zip it.

[Grimes E]

This seems to be off track..

Lets say all the dyno's are true and a basic newbie is buying them

So figure what they cost plus the install, is that worth the whole 1 or 2 hp and the 7ft/lb of torque. I dont think so

[DangerDude]

Why are you trying to even change his mind it is of no importance. It is of no importance what one man thinks. We have all been given the ability to reason. Some have decided not to do so. We were all on both forums given freely the info from EE and the proof of there gains is irrelevent. The issue is bashing a company because of tests it completed and the accusations of something phony or corrupt going on. That is Slander and it is wrong.

[Justang2k]

$100 and DIY install. worth 7rwtq? I think so.

you guys pay more than that for a CAI and get the same rwhp as these get rwtq, and the same rwtq as these get rwhp. the spacers are the ying to the cai's yang... if you will.

so is it worth the money? yes.

[pb_milan]

i don't see *many* hi-po engine builders like SHM, Morana or others using spacers.
they may sell and distribute them, sure, to make money but thats what its all about... to make some money. most of those so-called performance shops make a killing on stupid useless crap. they need to make money somewhere, because very little money is made by building engines and stuff.

i never see hi-po cars with spacers. and yes, i spend alot of time at tracks and i talk to alot of people.
they don't even mention spacers.
i know i'll be asking a few people about em. i would love to hear their input about spacers.

why does't ford, gm, honda, bmw or other manufactures use phenolic spacers?
i'm sure they would use them if they showed any sort of noticable gains.

[DangerDude]

i don't see *many* hi-po engine builders like SHM, Morana or others using spacers.
they may sell and distribute them, sure, to make money but thats what its all about... to make some money. most of those so-called performance shops make a killing on stupid useless crap. they need to make money somewhere, because very little money is made by building engines and stuff.

i never see hi-po cars with spacers. and yes, i spend alot of time at tracks and i talk to alot of people.
they don't even mention spacers.
i know i'll be asking a few people about em. i would love to hear their input about spacers.

why does't ford, gm, honda, bmw or other manufactures use phenolic spacers?
i'm sure they would use them if they showed any sort of noticable gains.

No they would not . With that reason why do they not Port the heads or put better cams in. it is like you said all about money and they are not going to spend one more cent on a V6 mustang unless they have to.

[pb_milan]

i don't see *many* hi-po engine builders like SHM, Morana or others using spacers.
they may sell and distribute them, sure, to make money but thats what its all about... to make some money. most of those so-called performance shops make a killing on stupid useless crap. they need to make money somewhere, because very little money is made by building engines and stuff.

i never see hi-po cars with spacers. and yes, i spend alot of time at tracks and i talk to alot of people.
they don't even mention spacers.
i know i'll be asking a few people about em. i would love to hear their input about spacers.

why does't ford, gm, honda, bmw or other manufactures use phenolic spacers?
i'm sure they would use them if they showed any sort of noticable gains.

No they would not . With that reason why do they not Port the heads or put better cams in. it is like you said all about money and they are not going to spend one more cent on a V6 mustang unless they have to.

alright, taken.

so why don't the "super cars" like the all-motor honda s2000, or ford mustang cobra "R" or other "super cars" not have phenolic spacers?
they tend to pull out all the stops when building those things.
i'm sure they'd slap on some spacers if they produced noticable gains

good factory heads, for instance, say eagle talon heads don't need to be ported stock. porting them would probably hurt thier performace and possibly cause a drop in cfm, or poor flow.
they come with great heads out of the box.
we can't say the same about the 3.8L head, but you know what i mean
ford never meant to make the 3.8L a firebreather

on the flipside...
spacers *might* make a bit more power... maybe a bit.
it would make the homosexual intake icing a bit easier by insulating the upper from the rest of the engine.

the argument about it increasing runner length is weak.
if anything, decreasing runner length is where its at.

imo, i wouldn't spend $110 on a spacer. thats just my narrowminded opinion tho.

[DangerDude]

Hey pb_milan my stand is not about why you should or should not get spacers. That is for you or anyone else to decide. My beef is with the Slander made about a company that did independent testing with there own money and posted their results and people made accusations of fraud and deceit. That is wrong

Corey

[pb_milan]

Hey pb_milan my stand is not about why you should or should not get spacers. That is for you or anyone else to decide. My beef is with the Slander made about a company that did independent testing with there own money and posted their results and people made accusations of fraud and deceit. That is wrong

Corey

not everyone feels the same way Gaston does about EE.
i've dealt with them and Randy myself. They seem to be legit, clean and professional. Awesome to work with.
They supported mine and Jamie's Morana V6 Ford Challenge a few weeks ago. i can only praise EE for that. It should be a sign that EE is also trying to rid itself of the messy reputation that StungbyMyStang left.
i wouldn't hesistate to buy anything from EE.

P.S. this is no ad. I'm just making it know publicly known how i feel about EE. personal experience

P.S. S. Corey, you're in no position to talk about slander at this time.

[DangerDude]

Hey pb_milan my stand is not about why you should or should not get spacers. That is for you or anyone else to decide. My beef is with the Slander made about a company that did independent testing with there own money and posted their results and people made accusations of fraud and deceit. That is wrong

Corey

not everyone feels the same way Gaston does about EE.
i've dealt with them and Randy myself. They seem to be legit, clean and professional. Awesome to work with.
They supported mine and Jamie's Morana V6 Ford Challenge a few weeks ago. i can only praise EE for that. It should be a sign that EE is also trying to rid itself of the messy reputation that StungbyMyStang left.
i wouldn't hesistate to buy anything from EE.

P.S. this is no ad. I'm just making it know publicly known how i feel about EE. personal experience

P.S. S. Corey, you're in no position to talk about slander at this time.

Slander is the false and malicious statement that damages. So tell me where was I slanderous. I posted the facts and feeling of quite a few people. Maybe not your feeling but that is OK. Disagreement is fine. I made no false statments about anything or anyone and I stand by that.

I have no ill feeling towards you or anyone else I think though the snobbery should stop.

Corey

[006]

PBMilan,

FordRacing DOES make PHENOLIC SPACERS.

http://www.fordracing.com/parts/search/detail/?Partid=323&VehicleType=All+Vehicles&sequence=1&nparttypeid=0&nvehicletypeid=0&szkeyword=phenolic&partnumber=&order=&page=1&group=1&pagecount=1&dispagenumber=1&item=3

http://www.fordracing.com/images/parts/large/9486-A53.jpg

New and improved quality, made-in-the-USA. CNC machined from Westinghouse Type C phenolic material fits between the upper and lower manifolds to help dissipate heat and significantly increase performance. Includes longer bolts.

Not legal for sale or use on pollution-controlled motor vehicles.

Stock 5.0L Manifold 1/2"

*************8*********

Phenolic spacer fits between upper and lower manifolds to help dissipate heat for cooler, more powerful air-fuel mixture. Includes gaskets and longer bolts.

1 thick clearance with M-6582-E302 valve covers.


Not legal for sale or use on pollution-controlled motor vehicles.

GT-40 Manifold 1/2"
************************

Phenolic spacer fits between upper and lower manifolds to help dissipate heat for cooler, more powerful air-fuel mixture. Includes gaskets and longer bolts.

1 thick clearance with M-6582-E302 valve covers.


Not legal for sale or use on pollution-controlled motor vehicles.

GT-40 Manifold 1"

[pb_milan]

006, i never said performance places don't make phenolic spacers.
they are a good way to make money
:)

its about money, thats usually the bottom line

[Thor]

I saw a guy at the Silver Springs Mustang Roundup last year who had a motor from Morana with shortened runner intake (single port) and a phenolic spacer claiming to run low to mid 14s... I was confused as to why shorten the runner length and then add to it more with a spacer.

[Bloodninja]

Why all this slander bullshit? You know the cliche, opinions are like assholes...

Every day someone says they like or don't like some product. Why is it that
when Gaston says that he doesn't believe in spacers is it slander? Why is
flex so threatened by Gaston? It's extremely obvious that flex has immense
issues with Gaston.

Gaston isn't the end-all of v6power, so stop treating it that way. Just because
Gaston paints his engine green doesn't mean that I want a green engine.
Don't be such little kids. "Ooh I 'm gonna get my lawyer because you won't
play nice with me." :rolleyes:

As far as spacers/longer runners are concerned, I see them as something for
the person who isn't serious about making their car fast. They might be
good for the person who likes to feel it a little more when they first hit the
throttle coming out of the stop sign. That's very low end torque. Why does
the 4.2 f150 have such crazy long runners? Very low end torque. Put one
of those uppers on your car and you'll probably feel it coming off that stop sign.

That's just my opinion though. Not v6power or any know-all end-all claim of
tech, just my opinion.

I guess I might get sued by Flex AND Gaston now. :rolleyes:

[Justang2k]

still no answer on what has to be done to make it a "legit" dyno. I'd really like to know.

[FrankSC97]

I've never cared for the before/after dynos on small mods (CAI, pulleys, spacers) because the minimal gains could be attributed to converter slip, temperature change, A/F ratio, barometric pressure.

The ideal dyno that I would believe 100%? Constantly changing the mod after every dyno pull and charted on a graph showing the air intake temp and the upper intake temp. So every odd pull would be without the spacer and every even pull would be with the spacer. A graph like that showing the hp gains would totaly convince me.

[Stone]

still no answer on what has to be done to make it a "legit" dyno. I'd really like to know.

Have you ever been to a dyno day? If so, have you seen how cars will
make dyno pulls at identical temps and the results will vary by 3-5HP?
Lets say I place a special coin on the intake manifold of a car on the dyno
and by luck it dynos 3-5HP higher on the next pull. Should this coin be
considered a worthy mod?

NO it shouldn't, because physics tells us that this coin did not add power.
Even tho the dyno proved that my coin is worth 3-5 HP.

You have misinterpreted the true value and purpose of a dyno. There is a margin of error (another scientific concept), you cannot reliably dyno the effects of ANY small mod.

[99vert]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

I love my spacers. I definately felt a difference the first time I put them in, and now there is proof that on at least one V6 mustang they did improve torque.

Since 99% of the V6ers out there are not hardcore professional racers, this addition is simply awesome.

[FrankSC97]

I love my spacers. I definately felt a difference the first time I put them in, and now there is proof that on at least one V6 mustang they did improve torque.

Nothing wrong with that. If you're happy, whether it's a real or a preceived gain, that's good enough. What you can't do, and this is kind of what Gaston is saying, is you can't take one instance and make generalized statements from it.

A good example I experienced:
2nd time I had my 94 GT at the track (bone stock) I was around 15.1. I got a K&N filter from someone and took out my dirty, cruddy paper filter. My times dropped to 14.7. Does that mean a K&N air filter is worth 4 tenths, or nearly 40hp? Not even close, yet if you only looked at my experience you would think this to be true.

[Jester4kicks]

why does't ford, gm, honda, bmw or other manufactures use phenolic spacers?
i'm sure they would use them if they showed any sort of noticable gains.

If you wanna debate the dyno results, I won't understand, but whatever.... but please don't suggest that just because a manufacturer doesn't include the part, that it means it's no good.... that's like saying CAI's, SFC's, or UDP's don't do anything.

Same thing with the analogy that if a noted racer doesn't use something, it must not work.... dyno results don't change based on popularity.

So you have two choices. Believe the dyno results, realize the price is well within acceptable ranges for this type of mod, and maybe try a set for yourself.... or don't believe the results, and resort to thinking that there is some big conspiracy here to put the dyno results into question.

[Jester4kicks]

Why all this slander bullshit?

Yeah! I mean come on! If anything, it's Libel. ROFL! :D

Anyway... Gaston, my only problem with your logic is that the dyno result was not a fluke. The same result (re: torque) presented itself despite other mods, and engine temp.

I agree that when talking about gains under 10 hp or tq, there is concern about possible dyno error... but with that many runs, and the same result every time... don't you think that at least proves something?

BTW guys... no hard feelings here, it's just a conversation. :)

[Dutch]

A good example I experienced:
2nd time I had my 94 GT at the track (bone stock) I was around 15.1. I got a K&N filter from someone and took out my dirty, cruddy paper filter. My times dropped to 14.7. Does that mean a K&N air filter is worth 4 tenths, or nearly 40hp? Not even close, yet if you only looked at my experience you would think this to be true.

If your old paper filter was clogged badly enough, a K&N could easily have given you 40hp and 4 tenths. That doesn't mean it's worth that much to everyone, though.

[stangin99]

I love how the almighty rick felt the need to insult my car and its mods.... :rolleyes:

[slvr2000stang]

I love how the almighty rick felt the need to insult my car and its mods.... :rolleyes:

The saga continues. :banghead:

[stangin99]

I love how the almighty rick felt the need to insult my car and its mods.... :rolleyes:

The saga continues. :banghead:

slvr, my feeling is the same as what I posted overthere. I could care less what some moron over the net thinks about my car.

But he still threw that useless comment into the "tech" thread.....and hes a mod ???:laugh2:

[Justang2k]

still no answer on what has to be done to make it a "legit" dyno. I'd really like to know.

Have you ever been to a dyno day? If so, have you seen how cars will
make dyno pulls at identical temps and the results will vary by 3-5HP?
Lets say I place a special coin on the intake manifold of a car on the dyno
and by luck it dynos 3-5HP higher on the next pull. Should this coin be
considered a worthy mod?

NO it shouldn't, because physics tells us that this coin did not add power.
Even tho the dyno proved that my coin is worth 3-5 HP.

You have misinterpreted the true value and purpose of a dyno. There is a margin of error (another scientific concept), you cannot reliably dyno the effects of ANY small mod.

I understand dyno error. I just want to know in what fashion should a dyno be done to prove a gain or loss of power? I want a way that will be accepted by everybody. a way that cannot be disputed in any way shape or form.

thanks.

[FrankSC97]

If your old paper filter was clogged badly enough, a K&N could easily have given you 40hp and 4 tenths. That doesn't mean it's worth that much to everyone, though.

That's exactly my point. What one mod does to one car does not make it 100% fact.

Justang2k, did you read my suggestion of switching the spacers for every dyno pull? That would eliminate alot of any error that could occur.

[Stone]

still no answer on what has to be done to make it a "legit" dyno. I'd really like to know.

Have you ever been to a dyno day? If so, have you seen how cars will
make dyno pulls at identical temps and the results will vary by 3-5HP?
Lets say I place a special coin on the intake manifold of a car on the dyno
and by luck it dynos 3-5HP higher on the next pull. Should this coin be
considered a worthy mod?

NO it shouldn't, because physics tells us that this coin did not add power.
Even tho the dyno proved that my coin is worth 3-5 HP.

You have misinterpreted the true value and purpose of a dyno. There is a margin of error (another scientific concept), you cannot reliably dyno the effects of ANY small mod.

I understand dyno error. I just want to know in what fashion should a dyno be done to prove a gain or loss of power? I want a way that will be accepted by everybody. a way that cannot be disputed in any way shape or form.

thanks.

I don't think you truly understand dyno error. Again: A dyno cannot
"PROVE" (I really hate this word because its innaccurate) any minor gain
or loss, no matter how you do it.

So don't ask for the 3rd time how to do it, because it can't be done. Are we clear?

[Justang2k]

so what are acceptable margins of error in a dyno? 10rwhp? 1rwhp? 5rwhp?

[slvr2000stang]

careful there justin looks like you are approaching the edge of the flat earth.

[jedikd]

doesn't this all mean that the ASP pulley is also within dyno error and no results can be proved? the gains are similar, and if one small gain can't be proved, then why can the other?

[Justang2k]

doesn't this all mean that the ASP pulley is also within dyno error and no results can be proved? the gains are similar, and if one small gain can't be proved, then why can the other?

I was getting to that! :D

[slvr2000stang]

Then using that theory, don't all the basic bolton mods fall into dyno error range? Damn I shouldn't have put all that crap on my car. :D

[fr0IVIan]

that's different. mods like the UDP and alum DS make sense... they free up more rwhp by reducing parasitic losses.
however, we can't make sense of how spacers do their thing, nor do we have empirical evidence that it accomplishes
the cooling effect that it is touted to have (how come nobody's checked temps on the upper, lower, etc. with an infrared temp gun during the whole process?).

the only way you can establish a statistical margin of error
for a certain car is to dyno that car a statistically significant
number of times (let's say, 50 times) with conditions as consistent
as possible (a closed dyno room with ambient temperature control
would be great) and have exactly the same length of cooldown
times and then average the peak numbers. then you would
have 50 peak numbers that you could figure a margin of error from.

but who the hell wants to do that to prove the effectiveness
of this part? personally, i don't give a crap what a
lot of people say. some people say it keeps the
upper cool; fine, that makes sense to me. some people
say it gives you more torque; i'll take that with a
grain of salt. some people say it isn't worth the
plastic it's made of; i'll take that with a grain of salt too.
if you like it, fine; don't try to claim that the spacer is
effective if you can't prove it to those who doubt you.
just post whatever numbers you have and you'll get
your customers regardless. it's not like gaston is
out there proactively disproving the spacers effectiveness.
i've never seen him put up a post like: "SPACERS ARE CRAP, DO NOT BUY THEM."

[fr0IVIan]

on a lighter note, bloodninja has started another thread that has generated a massive amount of views :D

*puts on his robe and wizard hat*

[RGR]

why doesn't Ford, gm, honda, bmw or other manufactures use phenolic spacers?
i'm sure they would use them if they showed any sort of noticable gains.

Good point, but why don't they all use _good_ tubular headers, the
best size of TB and have every engine blueprinted? (among other things
we mod our cars with)

Every dollar saved on each car adds up to millions!

[fr0IVIan]

[quote=pb_milan]Every dollar saved on each car adds up to millions!

i've been thinking about that, and why ford didn't just put the 4.2 cam in our 3.8 with an 8.8 rear and 3.73s. ok, maybe the rear would be a stretch, but cmon, how much more would it cost the company to put the 4.2 cam in the v6 mustang...

[RGR]

Every dollar saved on each car adds up to millions!

i've been thinking about that, and why ford didn't just put the 4.2 cam in our 3.8 with an 8.8 rear and 3.73s. ok, maybe the rear would be a stretch, but cmon, how much more would it cost the company to put the 4.2 cam in the v6 mustang...

Probably not a cent more, but that cam is ground for 4.2 emmissions
and would go over Ford's limits (if not the EPA's) and maybe slightly
reduce Ford's CAFE. (corp. avg. fuel economy)

They have other concerns that mean _squat_ to us :)

[Thor]

[quote=pb_milan]Every dollar saved on each car adds up to millions!

i've been thinking about that, and why ford didn't just put the 4.2 cam in our 3.8 with an 8.8 rear and 3.73s. ok, maybe the rear would be a stretch, but cmon, how much more would it cost the company to put the 4.2 cam in the v6 mustang...

It might not cost them anymore in cams, but the 4.2 cam idles rougher than the 3.8, etc. This is all taken into account what the buyers want for a grocery getter... you want performance? buy a GT or Cobra

[fr0IVIan]

damned corporate bastards...

[Dutch]

nor do we have empirical evidence that it accomplishes
the cooling effect that it is touted to have (how come nobody's checked temps on the upper, lower, etc. with an infrared temp gun during the whole process?).

I am your empirical evidence. I will tell you: if your car is moving and you have spacers, your upper intake will be essentially equal to the ambient temperature. No ifs, ands, or buts. Face facts.

However, if you are not moving, the upper will heat up, mostly because the fasteners are metal and transmit heat to the upper. I never measured how fast it heats up if you're not moving, but I can guarantee you it's cool if you're moving.

So, to summarize:

No spacers: upper intake temp equals approximately "holy shit that's hot, I burned my hand" degrees.

Spacers: upper intake temp equals approximately "hold my hand there and lean on the engine all day long" degrees.

[RGR]

nor do we have empirical evidence that it accomplishes
the cooling effect that it is touted to have (how come nobody's checked temps on the upper, lower, etc. with an infrared temp gun during the whole process?).

I am your empirical evidence. I will tell you: if your car is moving and you have spacers, your upper intake will be essentially equal to the ambient temperature. No ifs, ands, or buts. Face facts.

However, if you are not moving, the upper will heat up, mostly because the fasteners are metal and transmit heat to the upper. I never measured how fast it heats up if you're not moving, but I can guarantee you it's cool if you're moving.

So, to summarize:

No spacers: upper intake temp equals approximately "holy shit that's hot, I burned my hand" degrees.

Spacers: upper intake temp equals approximately "hold my hand there and lean on the engine all day long" degrees.

I'll buy that Dutch :)

I want an IR gun, not that bad but prob. ~$200, which is alot
for a small outfit like me, but I think I will get it.

[V6_Nut]

the only way you can establish a statistical margin of error
for a certain car is to dyno that car a statistically significant
number of times (let's say, 50 times) with conditions as consistent
as possible (a closed dyno room with ambient temperature control
would be great) and have exactly the same length of cooldown
times and then average the peak numbers. then you would
have 50 peak numbers that you could figure a margin of error from.

Ok, guys, say this with me now, they tested it over 40 runs... That is a 4 and a 0. 40. That seems close enough to 50 runs to me to indicate a gain. What is so hard to understand? Flex built them, someone else (Not making anymoney off them) tested them and found they helped. It seems retarded to say "I am right and you are wrong... Just because" which seems like what a lot of people are saying about this. I just don't get it. :eek9:

[MenaceStang99]

i just ordered the 1/2" intake and 1/2" tb spacers from flex a few days ago. i should be getting them sometimes early next week. a friend of mine has a legit Dyno i will dyno b4 and after results so we can see for sure if they really work or not. my honest opinion tho i think they help. if you think about what these spacers do logically there is no reason why you wouldnt see hp and torque gains.

[Bloodninja]

I'm so glad that this has been brought up again... :rolleyes:

[cgrant26]

I have a nearly bone stock auto 96. All I have is a K&N filter and a cut
filter housing. I would gladly lend my car to this cause if someone will
split the dyno costs and provide "loner" spacers.

[fr0IVIan]

:mad: damn it went two weeks before someone decided to beat a dead horse

[Full Tang]

Why not dyno with and without the spacers with the engine cold? That would show what the spacers really do to the powerband regardless of intake temps.

Just from Dutch's testimony I'm tempted to try one. I know my upper is hand-burning hot even after 60 miles on the highway at 70.

If money is no object, forget spacers and get a thermal barrier coating sprayed onto your upper and lower intake, inside the lower intake runners, and onto the combustion chambers and valves. That stuff REALLY reduces charge temps and improves combustion efficiency.

[RGR]

TTT :D

[Stone]

Nice move roger :rolleyes:

if you think about what these spacers do logically there is no reason why you wouldnt see hp and torque gains.

Please explain it to me logically/scientifically.

[99vert]

So the spacer debate seems to have died..

[RocketJock]

Okay I'll probably get flamed for this but I'll take a shot at it ...
over at mirocerros.com he had a 3/4" inch phenolic spacer for a split port.
(no kidding looks great ( I want one). Not for the horsepower but for the cooling.

The interesting comment is that he claims it increases the runner length
which drops the peak torque lower. So the engine would appear that it has more torque in the bottom end , when in fact the torque point has shifted down.

From my point of view.....
You're not making any more torque/power... just "relocating it"

Just trying to be objective.... If your buying it for cooling great, if your want to shift your peak torque down ..great...

cheers
RJ

[matthewneuharth]

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDtAuIY!vxCf!LqsXBkoLXuJ0MS!*SqpH8VwXdtWpv4XVx7N BucxjJh2umHmm2c83SmaHcre6HAhkr33eDqi82b2CUpiYc1WH7 nGFtSe74!5sVUE*1!vg/beating-a-dead-horse.gif[/i]

[cgrant26]

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDtAuIY!vxCf!LqsXBkoLXuJ0MS!*SqpH8VwXdtWpv4XVx7N BucxjJh2umHmm2c83SmaHcre6HAhkr33eDqi82b2CUpiYc1WH7 nGFtSe74!5sVUE*1!vg/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

One that died 2 years ago.